乔布斯的老上司：怎样发现下一个乔布斯

你在这本书里建议“聘用那些讨人厌的家伙”和“那些疯狂的家伙”。这对你有什么反作用吗？

有些人是因为烦人而遭人讨厌，没有哪家公司需要这样的人。但很多情况下，非常高傲的人也很讨人厌，而公司要能为这种人找到容身之处，并且多多少少要把他们和主流体系隔离开来，这样他们身上令人讨厌的地方就不会带来危害。有时候 ，出了技术问题，而你身边最聪明的人恰好是那个惹人讨厌的家伙，你会真心希望他是你的团队成员。

苹果公司以严格和保密著称。你觉得史蒂夫•乔布斯是不是扭曲了你的一些想法吗？

我觉得确实如此。实际上，我知道他们扭曲了我的想法。真正的问题在于，秘密可以成为一种工具，但我也觉得他们的秘密太多了。我觉得和谷歌（Google）相比，苹果过于遮遮掩掩，谷歌对自己正在进行的项目则相当开放。实际上，变得开放以后，你会得到一些意想不到的帮助，而苹果在这方面一直都没有得到什么好处。

你觉得其他关于史蒂夫•乔布斯的书和你的记忆吻合吗？

我觉得只要提到某个人，所有文章中提到他们的事情就都会涌现出来。我想我没有看到什么大的偏差，很多时候都是细节上或者侧重点的问题。我想我和他的私人关系能填补一些空白点，让人们看到一个完整的乔布斯。

你在书里谈到了哪些情况下你会允许员工在上班时间睡觉。这个观念已经进入了许多不同的公司。你认为这样的想法会不会影响工作和家庭生活之间的平衡呢？

如今在工作方面的一个问题是私人时间和工作时间界线不明。美国宇航局（NASA）对打盹的好处做了大量研究。它能让人重新精神焕发，有时候在午饭后小睡20分钟能让整个下午的工作效率倍增。

我觉得经营一家好公司的根本就是要公平。不要去打扰别人的自由时间。这么干绝对是错的，会降低效率，原因是现在我们中的大多数人都是脑力劳动者，最重要的就是工作态度。如果总是在做事情，工作态度就会非常、非常迅速地偏离正确的方向。

从雅达利到其他公司，你觉得自己的管理风格有什么发展变化吗？

当然有变化。它肯定经历了发展变化，而且多多少少变得更完善了。但在这期间，我的核心准则一直都相当统一。

这些核心准则是什么？

把员工当成年人对待。注重结果而不是过程。以能力取人，而不是那些必需的文凭。在我用过的最好的工程师中，有些人是自学成才。其中有几个甚至都连高中都没有毕业，更不用说大学了。我觉得主要是要聘用那些有创造力、心态快乐的人。如果不快乐，他们就不会非常优秀。一家管理合理的公司能让人们保持愉悦的心情。我一直都在想办法把重心放在这方面。“快乐”和人们做多少工作无关。和它有关的因素包括尊重、分工明确以及参与让自己感到骄傲的项目。

You give some advice in the book to "hire the obnoxious" and "hire the crazy." Has that backfired for you?

People who are obnoxious for obnoxious' sake, no company needs them. But a lot of times, people who are very arrogant are obnoxious, and the company needs to be able to find a place for those people, and somehow isolate them from the mainstream so their obnoxiousness doesn't become pernicious. Sometimes when you've got a technical problem and the smartest guy in the room happens to be obnoxious, you really want him on your team.

Apple is famous for its strict culture and secrecy. Do you think Steve Jobs warped some of your ideas?

Oh I'm sure they did. In fact, I know they did. The real issue is secrecy can be a tool, but at the same time, I think that there's too much secrecy. I think that Apple's too secretive compared to Google (GOOG), which is quite open about the projects it's working on. And what actually happens when you're more open is you get help from strange sources that Apple isn't getting the benefit of.

Do you feel that other books published about Steve Jobs have been pretty accurate from what you remember?

I think that whenever you have a person, they become a composite of all the things that are written about them, and I don't think there are any gross inaccuracies that I've seen. I think a lot times it's a matter of nuance, of emphasis. I thought that my personal relationship with him would fill in some of the pieces to get a complete view of the man.

In your book, you talk about how you would allow employees to sleep at work. That idea has spread to many different companies. Do you think that sort of thinking might interfere with work/home life balance?

The problem with today's work is that there's a blurring distinction between my time and the company's time. NASA did a whole bunch of studies on the benefits of a nap. It was tremendously rejuvenating, and in some cases it can double your productivity in the afternoon time if you take a 20-minute nap after lunch.

I think the whole ethos of running a good company is to be fair. Don't chew up people's free time. It's just wrong, and it's counterproductive because now most of us are knowledge workers, and the most important thing is perspective. And if you're working all the time, you lose perspective very, very quickly.

Would you say from your time at Atari and moving forward to your other companies, did your management style evolve?

Oh yeah. It definitely evolved and got somewhat more sophisticated. But my core principles stayed pretty consistent throughout that period of time.

What are those core principles?

Treat employees like adults. Focus on outcomes not process. Hire people for intensity not necessarily credentials. Some of the best engineers I've had were self-trained. A couple of them never completed high school let alone college. I think that the main thing to do is get creative, happy people. If your people aren't happy, then they aren't very good. A properly managed company can keep people happy. I always tried to focus on that. "Happy" has nothing to do with how much or how little people work. It has to do with respect and clear tasking, and being involved in projects that they can be proud of.